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Monday
Mar122012

UPA Raised A Flag On Bolotnaya

So I watched this RT report, it's about David Milliband being a moron...

Around 0:51-0:53 of the report, I had a WTF moment, I see the red/black flag of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) with a white tryzub, the national symbol of Ukraine emblazoned on it in the crowd of white balloons. I guess I'm late to the party, it says December 2011 on the footage. I was able to identify the demonstration as that which took place on Bolotnaya, and I made some searches and found this photo in case you miss those few seconds in the RT report:

It seems that I was right on the Bolotnaya, but this Bolotnaya was the second one, on 4 February. The author of the photo also had a WTF moment, he thinks this is some strange flag of Ukraine, and asks: 'What does Ukraine have to do with all this?' Once again showing complete ignorance and indifference of Russians to all things Ukrainian. Yeah, WTF is with all this?  

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Reader Comments (32)

By golly, there was indeed a Ukrainian nationalistic flag in the crowd (OUN or UPA?). Certainly was balsy, and indeed supports the RT pieces
conclusion that freedom of assembly is alive and well in Russia. I don't know how you caught it though, (it went by so very quickly, I actually missed it my first time viewing it), must be a well learned russophile skill??...Welcome to the world of free expression, Leos! :-)

@ Hack

Polish people have a much more pronounced reaction to this kind of thing, without having any love lost for Russia. ;-)

March 13, 2012 | Registered CommenterLeoš Tomíček

Leos:

Off-topic, but I think you'd be interested in these articles, which (surprisingly enough) were published on the normally russophobic and anti-UOC-MP RISU agency:

http://risu.org.ua/ua/index/all_news/community/social_questioning/47266/

http://risu.org.ua/ua/index/all_news/community/religion_and_society/47264/

March 13, 2012 | Unregistered Commenterdisgustedwithlies

The thread under the first article I posted has some useful analysis of the figures.

Bottomline: Denisenko has little real support, and many who call themselves adherents of the UOC-KP under Denisenko apparently either do not understand what the "UOC-KP" really is, or do not consider Denisenko to be their spiritual leader.

March 13, 2012 | Unregistered Commenterdisgustedwithlies

Leos - there's not a lot of love lost expressed for Poland by some Ukrainians either. You will admit that the type of expression evident in your photograph was indeed a rarity, in Moscow anyway??

Perhaps, this photograph is the smoking gun that you've been seeking that proves that the 100,000 strong protest movement in Moscow was actually planned and orchestrated in Galicia??...:-)

disgustedwithlies - things were so much easier for russophiles in the old days, eh? The government could pick and chose which church was deemed politically correct, and have all other churches deemed verboten and then confiscate their property and have their prelates shipped out to Siberia for 'reeducation'. Now, one has to somehow learn to coexist with these denominations that pay extra special tribute to Ukrainian cultural views.... aint life a bitch??......:-)

@ DWL

Thanks a lot for those links.

March 13, 2012 | Unregistered CommenterLeoš Tomíček

@ Hack

I did not say anything about the movement (which was never 100,000 strong) being directed from Galicia. I am still baffled about the presence of that flag in the crowd.

March 13, 2012 | Registered CommenterLeoš Tomíček

Leos - apparently the Muscovites in the crowd weren't nearly as 'baffled' or as intolerant as you seem to be??.....:-)

@ Hack

Well, these Muscovites are mostly ignorant idiots. ;-)

March 13, 2012 | Registered CommenterLeoš Tomíček

Muscovites, russodomites, neo-imperialists, yeah,...I couldn't agree with you more!....:-) :-)

http://barak-obmana.livejournal.com/1599073.html ;-)

March 13, 2012 | Registered CommenterLeoš Tomíček

"The government could pick and chose which church was deemed politically correct, and have all other churches deemed verboten and then confiscate their property and have their prelates shipped out to Siberia for 'reeducation'."

Just like the way many Catholic and Protestant countries treated their religious minorities before the end of World War II.

It shouldn't also be forgotten that while Orthodoxy was clearly preferred by the Russian Empire, Roman Catholicism and various forms of Protestantism were legal and operated numerous churches and schools within Russia itself (and not just in the Polish and Baltic lands).

March 13, 2012 | Unregistered Commenterdisgustedwithlies

Well, if these disgusting policies were OK way back when, perhaps they should be reinstituted now?? Then we wouldn't have the problems associated with the UOC(KP) or a Ukrainian Catholic Church wanting to develop their own separate agendas from the ROC?.....After all, diversity is to be discouraged within the concept of a 'One Ruskiy Mir' worldview, isn't it???.......

"Well, if these disgusting policies were OK way back when, perhaps they should be reinstituted now??"

Who is saying that this should be done? Even the UOC-MP's official position is that the Ukrainian church problem should be solved without interference by politicians. Speaking of coercion and "disgusting tactics" it was Kravchuk who blessed the outright persecution of the UOC-MP during his time, and it was Yushchenko who brazenly attempted to the use the power of the Ukrainian state to support the UOC-KP and the UGCC in their war against the UOC-MP. All those crying for "religious freedom" in Ukraine now were silent then, weren't they?

"Then we wouldn't have the problems associated with the UOC(KP) or a Ukrainian Catholic Church wanting to develop their own separate agendas from the ROC?"

What I see is the UGCC wanting to transform the part of Ukraine that they don't control (some 90% of the country if not more) into an extension of Galician culture and ideology; and the UOC-KP serving as the vehicle of the ambitions of one man.

March 14, 2012 | Unregistered Commenterdisgustedwithlies

' it was Kravchuk who blessed the outright persecution of the UOC-MP during his time, and it was Yushchenko who brazenly attempted to the use the power of the Ukrainian state to support the UOC-KP and the UGCC in their war against the UOC-MP.'

No need to worry now, Yankovych who is seen in a barrage of photo opts kissing the ring of Kyril will finally reverse this severe form of Ukrainian bigotry.

'What I see is the UGCC wanting to transform the part of Ukraine that they don't control (some 90% of the country if not more) into an extension of Galician culture and ideology'

An opinion well substantiated by the fact that the UGCC has built at least 1 Church (in Kyiv to be exact, to which Leos wrote an appropriate response at this site) in that remining 90% of the country. And you're not just wee bit paranoid in your kooky fanatasies now are you disgustedwithlies?? :-)

'The Jesuits are coming, the Jesuits are coming, lock down the town's gates'

(Perhaps, a new Berlin wall should be erected, separating the pernicious land of Galicia from the rest of pure Orthodoxy (true federalism)??:-) :-)

@ Hack

Yanukovych according to what I was able to observe is completely indifferent to religious issues. He appears on the surface to be pro-canonical, but that is rather his personal preference. Kissing Patriarch's ring is hardly an indication of his involvement in the matters of the Church.

March 14, 2012 | Registered CommenterLeoš Tomíček

"(Perhaps, a new Berlin wall should be erected, separating the pernicious land of Galicia from the rest of pure Orthodoxy (true federalism)??:-) :-)"

Catholic cathedrals in Moscow:
http://tinyurl.com/7edzveh
http://tinyurl.com/88ytla5

Lutheran:
http://tinyurl.com/6w9b7gy

If someone is saying they have to go all the way to Siberia to find these, they are lying. OTOH, Orthodox cathedrals were seized by nationalists in Galacia, regardless of who the original owners were. Maybe they should return all that property - especially since the owners originally lost it while being persecuted by the Communist authorities?

March 14, 2012 | Unregistered Commentercartman

@ cartman

I'm sorry, the presence of links has thrown your comment into moderation. Comment now approved.

March 14, 2012 | Registered CommenterLeoš Tomíček

' Orthodox cathedrals were seized by nationalists in Galacia, regardless of who the original owners were. '

Cartman - I'm not saying that this couldn't have occured, but I am curious as to which exact 'Orthodox Cathedrals' you have in mind?...Are you sure that these cathedrals weren't prehaps Ukrainian Uniate to begin with??....

'Yanukovych according to what I was able to observe is completely indifferent to religious issues.'

Leos - I haven't been able to discern peoples religious convictions, based solely on photos. Perhaps, Yushenko was more indifferent, Yanukovych somewhere in the moddile, and of course Putin the most sincere as regards to religious issues and convictions???.....:-)

"An opinion well substantiated by the fact that the UGCC has built at least 1 Church (in Kyiv to be exact, to which Leos wrote an appropriate response at this site) in that remining 90% of the country. And you're not just wee bit paranoid in your kooky fanatasies now are you disgustedwithlies??"

The UGCC has erected -- outside of its 'traditional' territories -- the Exarchates of Donetsk, Lutsk and Odessa-Crimea, in addition to an Archeparchy in Kyiv.

The following contains the Vatican's official statistics for the Eastern Catholic Churches as of 2010:

http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

The section on the UGCC has the following data:

Archeparchy of Kyiv -- 3 bishops, 51 parishes, 30 secular priests, 13 religious priests

Exarchate of Odessa-Crimea: 1 bishop, 50 parishes, 29 secular priests, 21 religious priests

Exarchate of Donetsk-Kharkiv: 2 bishops, 43 parishes, 43 secular priests, 7 religious priests

Exarchate of Lutsk: 1 bishop, 18 parishes, 11 secular priests, 5 religious priests

Hardly an invasion, but not negligible either.

At any rate, I have no issue with the UGCC establishing its presence outside of Galicia. What I DO have an issue with is the UGCC's propaganda machine (as can be seen in RISU) that constantly drums an extremely Galician / diaspora view of what it means to be Ukrainian, coupled with demands that the UOC-MP distance itself from Moscow and uphold "Ukrainian" (read: Svidomite) nationalism. I mean, bloody hell, who are they to lecture the UOC-MP what to believe?

By the way, here's an interesting bit of data: according to the Vatican's official statistics (see the link I've provided) -- which are based on the respective dioceses' own reports -- there were 4,350,735 Ukrainian Greek Catholics ALL OVER THE WORLD as of 2010. This flies in the face of UGCC and other Svidomite claims that the UGCC has 5-6 million adherents in Ukraine alone. The 2010 Vatican statistics actually count only 3,386,891 UGCC adherents in Ukraine itself (and this is based on some eparchial stats that are obviously rounded off.)

March 15, 2012 | Unregistered Commenterdisgustedwithlies

"Cartman - I'm not saying that this couldn't have occured, but I am curious as to which exact 'Orthodox Cathedrals' you have in mind?...Are you sure that these cathedrals weren't prehaps Ukrainian Uniate to begin with??...."

St. George Cathedral in Lvov was built in the mid-18th century by the Greek Catholics, true enough.... the thing is, it was built on the site of an Orthodox church that had been built in the 14th century.

March 15, 2012 | Unregistered Commenterdisgustedwithlies

disgustedwithlies - thanks for the info. I still find it extremely difficult to believe that there are so many Ukrainian Catholic parishes in eastern and southern Ukraine. I mean really, does anybody out there really believe that there are 50 Ukrainian Catholic parishes in Odessa, and 43 in Donetsk/Kharkiv?? I mean if this istrue, it tickles me pink (and I'm not even a member of this church). Very, very hard to believe though......
(maybe this is the Catholic Church's ambitious marketing plans?)

'The Jesuits have arrived, the Jesuits have arrived!!! :-) ...

'St. George Cathedral in Lvov was built in the mid-18th century by the Greek Catholics, true enough.... the thing is, it was built on the site of an Orthodox church that had been built in the 14th century.'

All of the eastern rite churches and communities in Galicia and Byelorussia were originally Orthodox. An extremely strong effort of polonization of these areas (not unlike similar policies of russification in the eastern Ukrainian lands) precipitated the Church Unia of 1596. The Orthodox brotherhood of St. Georges in Lviv, held on to their Orthodox faith for about 100 years after the Unia, and were one of the last parishes to go over to the Union.

After Galicia was incorporated into the Soviet Ukraine, the Ukrainian Catholic Church was also prohibited from existing, it's clergy severely persecuted by the communists, and either forced to convert to the state sanctioned Orthodox Church or face exile to Siberia to the gulags. Some converted to Orthoxy, others chose to hold steadfast to their faith and were ultimately destroyed. The church went underground and was know as the 'Church of the Catacombs'. A good film entitled 'The Shoes of the Fisherman' starring Anthony Quinn, wa actually losely based on the life of Cardinal Joseph Slypij, who was the object of much political intrigue in the 60's that ended with his being released after 20 years in a Siberian work camp. An interesting film, and interesting man.

"I still find it extremely difficult to believe that there are so many Ukrainian Catholic parishes in eastern and southern Ukraine. I mean really, does anybody out there really believe that there are 50 Ukrainian Catholic parishes in Odessa, and 43 in Donetsk/Kharkiv??"

Your argument should be with the Vatican and the UGCC, not with me.

The Exarchates of Odessa, Donetsk/Kharkiv, Lutsk and the Archeparchy of Kyiv cover not only the cities where they are centered, but cover most of Ukraine as the map of UGCC eparchies in Ukraine shows (see the Wikipedia article on the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church), since the vast majority of UGCC priests and parishes are concentrated in the extreme West of Ukraine. So, yes, the statistics are believable. I understand that most of the UGCC parishes are located in temporary structures or private homes, but this does not mean that their presence isn't real, and the UGCC is quite vocal about wanting land for new churches in the Center and East of Ukraine.

March 15, 2012 | Unregistered Commenterdisgustedwithlies

"After Galicia was incorporated into the Soviet Ukraine, the Ukrainian Catholic Church was also prohibited from existing, it's clergy severely persecuted by the communists, and either forced to convert to the state sanctioned Orthodox Church or face exile to Siberia to the gulags."

No one denies this, and this is public knowledge, to the point that many Catholics think that only the UGCC was persecuted by Stalin. Whether this justifies the UGCC in its slanderous propaganda against the UOC-MP is another matter.

March 15, 2012 | Unregistered Commenterdisgustedwithlies

'I understand that most of the UGCC parishes are located in temporary structures or private homes, but this does not mean that their presence isn't real, and the UGCC is quite vocal about wanting land for new churches in the Center and East of Ukraine.'

disgustedwithlies - does the UGCC's vocalizing of its need for more permanant structures in these areas cause you some sort of discomfort?

'many Catholics think that only the UGCC was persecuted by Stalin. Whether this justifies the UGCC in its slanderous propaganda against the UOC-MP is another matter.'

Actually, I think that most Ukrainian Catholics are indeed aware that other churches were also persecuted. Perhaps their propoganda campaign against the UOC-MP has other sources? It's my sincere, but alas uncherished belief that all of these churches are involved in various propaganda wars...I'm not about to get too deeply involved in trying to vindicate/denigrate which church is more guilty of unsubstantiated slurs. There's enough blaim for all the churches, and they should all start displaying more christian tolerance of one another.

Coincidentally, Karma-Murza's newest piece also references Boltnaya Street:

a key concession by the Kremlin in the face of December’s 100,000-strong protest on Bolotnaya Square. The new law on political parties—another December concession, set to be signed by the end of this month—will for the first time in years give new anti-Kremlin parties official registration and access to the ballot. As opposition leader Boris Nemtsov suggested, “This is not a sprint, it’s going to be a marathon.” “If this system took 15 or so years to be created, we need a few years—three, four, five—to dismantle it,” predicted another liberal leader, Grigory Yavlinsky. “The road will be long and hard, it will be no quick struggle, but we will do it all. Russia will be free.”

He also cites many diferent statistics from varying sources regarding the recent farcical elections. An even more in depth analysis is offered by Motyl's well thought out latest piece: 'Fascistoid Russia: Whither Putin’s Brittle Realm?' http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/fascistoid-russia-whither-putin%E2%80%99s-brittle-realm

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